Very provocative thought of the day: Hell and the "God behind the back of Jesus Christ."
Warning: the following post is me in my slightly more assertive and provocative mode. I hold those who take different views from me (i.e., almost every other Christian theologian in the world) in high esteem. So the following comments are intended as constructive and not critical in any hurtful way. I fully appreciate why those who differ from me hold the view that they do.
I have a theological worry about the idea that the end of the story for some/many human beings will be eternal destruction, whether that be annihilation or eternal conscious torment.
Setting the Scene
As Christians Jesus Christ is the starting point and the ending point for our theological reflections. He is the definitive revelation of God and of God's kingdom purposes. And thus all our eschatological reflections and speculations must be utterly reconfigured around Jesus.
Christ, as Second Adam, represents all of humanity before God. He is the eschaton made flesh. The "Last Things"—the coming of final judgement and resurrection—have erupted into the present in the death and resurrection of Jesus.
So eschatological speculations on the final state of humanity must take Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, as definitive. In his risen body the destiny of humanity is revealed.
My Worry
My theological worry is simply this: to me, the suggestion that some (indeed, many or even most) people will never experience salvation sounds very much like the claim that something other than Jesus Christ is definitive for the shape of the future.
The suggestion that God's final victory will involve the irreversible destruction of many/most people sounds to me like something other than the resurrection of Christ is being allowed to govern our understanding of "God's triumph." The idea that God can "reconcile" some creatures by forcing them to acknowledge that he is the boss and then destroying them is, to me ear, a call to allow the understanding of "reconciliation" to wander free from its anchoring in the gospel.
The proposal that we need to allow God the "freedom" to decide the "end of the story" and that universalism is a presumptuous attempt to snatch such freedom from God sounds to me like an exhortation that we find another God "behind the back" of Jesus Christ. God has already shown his hand in the story of Jesus. He has already chosen, in his freedom, to "be our God." (And what kind of "freedom" are we being asked to allow God here? The freedom to damn people he could just as easily redeem? To me, this sounds like the "freedom" for God to be someone other than God. Such a "freedom" is, to my mind, an imperfection and unworthy of God).
As an aside, and with all due respect to all my friends who are "hopeful universalists," I will now explain my theological problem with "hopeful universalism."
Whilst I can appreciate that hopeful universalists seek to be humble before God and before mystery (and I am very much in favour of humility and mystery), I do think that such hesitancy is problematic. To say, "My hope is that God will save all but I cannot say with certainty that he will" sounds to me like the following:
"I hope that God will utterly triumph in the end but I cannot be sure that he will";
"I hope that God will be all in all—it is a live possibility—but we cannot be dogmatic."
To me such "hopeful" universalism sounds like the worry that perhaps God's reconciling action in Christ will, in the end, fall short for some reason.
Eschatological universalism is nothing more than a claim that the end of the story cannot be anything other than an empty tomb. Anything less is not a divine triumph but a divine failure because on any other scenario the future of the world is being shaped, not by the redeeming action of God in Christ but by sin; not by the Second Adam but by the First.
If we wish to know the future of humanity we look to the risen Lord. End of story.
I have a theological worry about the idea that the end of the story for some/many human beings will be eternal destruction, whether that be annihilation or eternal conscious torment.
Setting the Scene
As Christians Jesus Christ is the starting point and the ending point for our theological reflections. He is the definitive revelation of God and of God's kingdom purposes. And thus all our eschatological reflections and speculations must be utterly reconfigured around Jesus.
Christ, as Second Adam, represents all of humanity before God. He is the eschaton made flesh. The "Last Things"—the coming of final judgement and resurrection—have erupted into the present in the death and resurrection of Jesus.
So eschatological speculations on the final state of humanity must take Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, as definitive. In his risen body the destiny of humanity is revealed.
My Worry
My theological worry is simply this: to me, the suggestion that some (indeed, many or even most) people will never experience salvation sounds very much like the claim that something other than Jesus Christ is definitive for the shape of the future.
The suggestion that God's final victory will involve the irreversible destruction of many/most people sounds to me like something other than the resurrection of Christ is being allowed to govern our understanding of "God's triumph." The idea that God can "reconcile" some creatures by forcing them to acknowledge that he is the boss and then destroying them is, to me ear, a call to allow the understanding of "reconciliation" to wander free from its anchoring in the gospel.
The proposal that we need to allow God the "freedom" to decide the "end of the story" and that universalism is a presumptuous attempt to snatch such freedom from God sounds to me like an exhortation that we find another God "behind the back" of Jesus Christ. God has already shown his hand in the story of Jesus. He has already chosen, in his freedom, to "be our God." (And what kind of "freedom" are we being asked to allow God here? The freedom to damn people he could just as easily redeem? To me, this sounds like the "freedom" for God to be someone other than God. Such a "freedom" is, to my mind, an imperfection and unworthy of God).
As an aside, and with all due respect to all my friends who are "hopeful universalists," I will now explain my theological problem with "hopeful universalism."
Whilst I can appreciate that hopeful universalists seek to be humble before God and before mystery (and I am very much in favour of humility and mystery), I do think that such hesitancy is problematic. To say, "My hope is that God will save all but I cannot say with certainty that he will" sounds to me like the following:
"I hope that God will utterly triumph in the end but I cannot be sure that he will";
"I hope that God will be all in all—it is a live possibility—but we cannot be dogmatic."
To me such "hopeful" universalism sounds like the worry that perhaps God's reconciling action in Christ will, in the end, fall short for some reason.
Eschatological universalism is nothing more than a claim that the end of the story cannot be anything other than an empty tomb. Anything less is not a divine triumph but a divine failure because on any other scenario the future of the world is being shaped, not by the redeeming action of God in Christ but by sin; not by the Second Adam but by the First.
If we wish to know the future of humanity we look to the risen Lord. End of story.
Comments
1. They are some sort of free-will theist, and so at a philosophical level, they cannot be dogmatic about the fact that God will win everyone (including Satan/demons). Some might be, or their own volition, irrevocably hardened to God and God will have to put them out of existence.
2. They believe the biblical data is not clear enough to be dogmatic about total redemption of all.
I sympathize with both of these reservations. Don't be too hard on the "hopeful" ones. :)
I don't know why I'm not going for full universalism, so to speak; it accords very well with my own Beale-influenced eschatology that the world will one day be equivalent to Israel's holy of holies. Perhaps I'm just scared of coming out (in this sense)!
Of course, I am being provocative.
"Hopeful" universalists and non-universalists have good reasons, such as those you note, for not embracing "certain" universalism. I myself once had similar reasons so I understand and feel no animosity towards any of them.
Also, I know that none of them would deny that "God wins" or that "God will be all in all" or that "theology should be focused in Christ." All these things they would affirm.
However, I do wish to provoke fresh thoughts amongst such Christians as to whether their account of divine freedom and divine victory are adequate CHRISTIAN understandings. I wish to provoke such believers to ask whether they have appreciated the IMPLICATIONS of a christocentric eschatology.
My hope is that even those who think I have misread the theological implication will not mind have such challenges posed to them.
Also, I argue in my book (TEU)
(a) that freewill theism does not provide a solid reason to waver over the final human destiny and also
(b) that Scripture is compatible with universalist hope.
So whilst the reasons for rejecting "certain" universalism are good and understandable, I would say that there is a good case to be made for them not being good enough.
Again, I do not expect everyone to agree. I have no problem at all with those who, in good faith, take a different view.
Sure—not all people are psychologically able to believe such things and I understand that. No problems at all.
Robin
Not sure I am capable of a journal-quality theology paper. I have never even tried to write one (I always found contemporary theology quite hard to understand). I kind of get it when I read it but my brain does not work in those kinds of ways.
But I will think about that. Perhaps I could offer a paper at SST one year (never tried that either) as a trial and see if it works
Thanks for the kind words
Robin
Most mainline protestant preachers only do half of their job. They preach love, love, love of Jeeezus, and leave out the law. A good example is my pastor who this morning preached on Matthew 5:13-20. The problem was that he only used verses 5 through 16, leaving out 17 through 20, which definitely calls out that we are expected to conform to the law and that anyone who teaches differently is in a world of hurt. I submit that not preaching the law gets a preacher in trouble with his God. Universalism sounds sweet and lovable. It just isn't Biblical. I further submit that God didn't creat us to love, but we are created and allowed to continue to exist because we are fun to watch. The love stuff is egotistical hope on our part. If you read the Bible with the idea that the intellectual relationship gap between God and man is greater than the intellectual gap between man and the microbes on the fleas on his pet dog, the words take on a whole different meaning. First off, we can see why Satan was upset with God for even paying attention to us mud creatures. Secondly we begin to see that those writing the Bible, even under the guidance of God, sneaked in a bunch of self-serving stuff to make them look good...or powerful....or leader-like with God as the ultimate dooms-day weapon. Try reading the Bible from that mind-set. And yeah, you egoists may remind me that the Bible says we are "slightly lower than the angels".....so....what level
does slightly lower" put us? To conclude, the Bible nowhere says we have an immortal soul, not does it say we burn in hell forever. It says hell is forever. If we don't make the final cut to heaven, we are done away with and
God goes on with the people he can use and have been fun to watch. That is a merciful God.
I'm interested in any comments.
dick.may@verizon.net
Oliver is right. I think that you may be pleasantly surprised to discover that universalism is not quite what you think it is. Take a read and see what you think.
Thanks for commenting,
Robin
My name is Drew. I have been reading your blog for a while and have found many of your points fascinating and fairly convincing. But I am so torn right now brother. One of my good friends (who I respect very much and has a brilliant philosophical mind) has some major philosophical and theological problems with universalism so much so that he has said that he hopes universalism is not true. He actually views God as being a monster if he saves everyone. At one point my friend wanted it to be true, but now is pretty certain he does not want it to be true. Here are his following reasons.
1. Universalism leads to theological determinism which (in his mind) erases any meaningful notion of choice. Love requires a choice and he feels that to lose our ability to choose to love God ends up turning God into a monster who ULTIMATELY forces himself on us. He overrides our wills. (big no no for my friend).
2. He asks a good question: Why would God want to ultimately force people to be with Him who consistently denied him and wanted no part of him at all? Why won't God let them have their wish?
3. He asks: What is the point of this life then? Why would God allow people to go through horrible suffering, angst, torment, confusion, and despair, just to be ultimately saved and live with God? God could easily have created people to be with him immediately. To my friend, universalism seems to mock this life and sees it almost as a cruel joke.
These are the big three problems my friend has. I know that they cannot be responded to adequately in a few paragraphs, but some initial thoughts would be very helpful. Thank you
Robin and others can give your friend better answers but for my twopennorth I don't believe God forces anyone to be reconciled. I think everyone eventually wants reconciliation, even though for many people that moment comes after death. When face to face with Christ we have an "Oh its YOU" moment and God is always and forever ready and able to forgive, cleanse and heal.
Is it more loving to allow someone to choose Hell (which is worse than allowing someone to commit suicide), than it is to deny them making that choice? Taking it further, what if the person wanting to make the choice, is your child?
Fortunately, I don't think God will have to force anyone, as He is extremely patient, powerful and clever! Being infinitely awesome, He is able to allow/gently guide everyone to eventually, freely choose Him.
Anyway, you might find the evangelicaluniversalist.com forum (see Robin's "Recommended Sites") a helpful place to ask questions and find encouragement. Talbott & Robin are members, however, members don't have to be universalists, and indeed there are some who argue (usually politely) against it.
As you probably guessed, I'm also a member of the forum :)
Regarding those very good question I would refer you to chapter 1 of The Evangelical Universalist. For a more detailed treatment of them see the article by Eric Reitan in "Universal Salvation? The Current Debate" and various academic papers by Tom Talbott which are on his website here (http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/publications.html). As I recall, the following are well worth a look:
Freedom, Damnation and the Power to Sin with Impunity
Universalism and the Greater Good
Misery and Freedom: a reply to Jerry Walls.
However, all Tom's stuff on freedom and universalism is very good. Check it out and see what you think.
A few verses later (1 Cor. 15:47) the word "second" does indeed occur in connection with Christ:
1st man -- dust of the earth
2nd Man -- from Heaven
...and here "second man" (not last) is very appropriate, for two reasons:
1) Adam in his innocence was man as God created man, man as God intended him to be, true man...when sin entered the race, man ceased to be man as originally created and became something less. Consequently, Jesus Christ in his sinless humanity was indeed the "second man", the ONLY FIGURE IN HISTORY SINCE THE FALL TO STAND AS FULLY MAN IN THE WORLD!
2)The whole point of His mission as the second man "from Heaven" was that he MIGHT NOT BE THE LAST MAN, BUT RATHER, THE BEGINNING OF A NEW SERIES, THE FOUNDATION OF A NEW HUMANITY, the "first born" among many brothers (Romans 8:29)
I myself believe everyone is going to heaven and have written a book about it called "The Biblical Case for Everyone Going to Heaven" which is available free and online at http://wp.me/PNthc-i6
I hope you and others find it helpful.
A very good post (and an interesting discussion... I particularly like Marc's comment).
You talk about "hopeful" universalists and the problems therein. Hebrews 11:1 says that "faith is being sure of what we hope for..."
Perhaps it could be seen that those "hopeful" universalists are not actually sure of their hope? Just a thought!
I need to finish reading your book at some point... :D
You are right. And it is precisely for that reason that I never feel comfortable refering to that position as "hopeful" universalism. I often use scare quotes because it is not hopeful in the biblical sense of hopeful.
A more accurate description may be "open-to-the-possibility-of-universalism" but that is a bit of a mouthful.
"Wishful universalists" might do it but that could also be said to cover those who deny universalism though wish that it were true.
Possibly "tentative universalists"
Hmmmm
Think I need to work on that
I think this was MikeG's point too.
FYI here's my case that every Christian should be a hopeful universalist:
http://randalrauser.com/wp-admin/post.php?post=1321&action=edit&message=6
Your arguments are always worth considering!!!
Your argument is convincing and anyone who disagreed with it would need some serious santification work on their emotions (except for those who think that there is no chance of the card being picked . . . in that case their failing to hope that the "everyone wins" card will be picked is not a consequence of unholy desires).
However, your's is an argument for Christians who think that the chances of universalism actually being true are small at best. That's fair enough.
I am coming at things from the other end. I guess that is kind of easy for me because I happen to think universalism is the sober truth. So the argument is not aimed at people like me. (But why should it be?)
What I offer is not incompatible with your case (I agree with your argument).
What I am offering is a theological reason for holding to a robust universalism.
Now, I will be honest with you. I do not think that my argument will have (or ought to have) persuasive power for those who think that the Bible points in a different direction. So we cannot avoid dealing with the biblical material. But perhaps my argument tips the scales in favour of a universalist theological reading of the biblical texts. And perhaps when we come to texts which could be read in traditional or universalist ways and we cannot break the impasse this argument will make the universalist reading preferable.
I hear ya. What I frequently encounter is evangelicals who think of universalism as heresy akin to Arianism or Pelagianism or Gnosticism or ....
But from my end it is a huge hurdle if we can get people to say "I hope universalism is true" which is, of course, something the average Christian wouldn't say about Arianism, Pelagianism or Gnosticism. This automatically removes the stigma the view once had. And when universalism is no longer a four letter word the way is clear to consider your arguments.
I agree with you. I think I shall borrow your argument (whilst acknowledging its source)
RAP
That is a fascinating comment and I will need to consider it carefully before I can give an adequate reply.
On the one hand, I suppose that not a whole lot depends on what you say except our use of terminology. You agree that one could accept your argument and be a universalist. Interesting. I see that.
On the second hand, even if one were to concede your point one might still argue that we are free to use the word "saved" of such people so long as we are clear that we are not using the term in exactly the same way as certain NT authors. Theological terms in systematic theology do not necessarily follow biblical usage slavishly. So with care things might be OK.
On the third hand—and here I would need to look more closely at the text so what I am about to say is tentative—I think that there is quite possibly a biblical case to be made for using "salvation" language of those saved out of hell. Within the Bible itself salvation language is not monochrome and has a range of meanings and nuances. But I think it is right to say that God can "save" Israel, say, from the oppression of Babylon—an oppression which he himself sent as a punishment.
Israel could be saved from Babylon in one of two biblical senses.
1. Saved from affliction in the first place
2. Saved from the midst of affliction after it has started.
I don't suppose that an analogous approach to hell need cause too many problems. Could some be "saved, but only as those escaping through the fire"?
I am absolutely amazed that Augustine ever said anything so "tender hearted". In fact his very point is one I think I learned from Thomas Talbott -- that
“They shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in that which is to come.” [Matt 12:32]"
simply means they must go forward for "Divine" punishment and then, having paid the price, be restored.
So Calvin out-Augustined Augustine!
TN
Oliver will (I hope) reply for himself.
Robin
That said, like Warfield and Shedd amongst others, I'm a hopeful particularist. That is, I hope that the vast majority of humanity will be saved.
I hope that clears things up a bit!
BW-
Oliver.