tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post9030668681582922233..comments2024-03-02T08:27:42.344+00:00Comments on Theological Scribbles: Hell with an Exit? Theological Reflections on the book of Lamentations and HellRobin Parryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08856329564156757485noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-42564706246966119282008-10-13T13:27:00.000+01:002008-10-13T13:27:00.000+01:00AnonymousI have read the book you mention and I ca...Anonymous<BR/><BR/>I have read the book you mention and I can see why you would connect what I have said to the proposals in that volume. However, my proposal here is more modest that in "The Evangelical Universalist". <BR/><BR/>My argument, based on reflections on Lamentations, is not an argument found in MacDonald's book. Whilst my argument is compatible with universalism (so MacDonald would certainly like it) it is also compatible with non-universalism. <BR/><BR/>I am not arguing that everyone will be saved. I am merely arguing that Hell may have an exit that some will avail themselves of.<BR/><BR/>As to who Gregory MacDonald is I am afraid you will need to ask him. He does have a blog site you can visit and post the question.<BR/><BR/>RobinRobin Parryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08856329564156757485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-44998612503533232122008-10-10T10:41:00.000+01:002008-10-10T10:41:00.000+01:00Have you read The Evangelical Universalist? (and w...Have you read The Evangelical Universalist? (and who is it?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-9354498319378826422008-10-08T01:31:00.000+01:002008-10-08T01:31:00.000+01:00Mushy Brain Syndrome. Know it well. It's caused by...Mushy Brain Syndrome. Know it well. It's caused by children, amongst other things...<BR/><BR/>Is 'a representative microcosm' the same thing as the Type/Antitype relationship? Or is it merely a subset?The Pookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14348286180688900647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-87835786244920460612008-10-07T18:20:00.000+01:002008-10-07T18:20:00.000+01:00Pooksorry - one final thing. I am not suggesting t...Pook<BR/><BR/>sorry - one final thing. I am not suggesting that anyone can be saved apart from Christ or even apart from explicit faith in Christ (I am open to inclusivism but incline to exclusivism). I am asking if some in Hell might find salvation in Christ? Why not, eh?<BR/><BR/>RobinRobin Parryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08856329564156757485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-82863659091363575782008-10-07T18:17:00.000+01:002008-10-07T18:17:00.000+01:00PookYet again I must say how much I value your ref...Pook<BR/><BR/>Yet again I must say how much I value your reflections.<BR/><BR/>Let me see if this helps.<BR/><BR/>I agree with you that the Exodus/New Exodus is a paradigm of salvation in Christ. My speculations are not intended to question that insight but to ask whether they could provide a model for some who are in Hell - that some of the damned too might find salvation in Christ. (A radical suggestion, I know!)<BR/><BR/>The theo-logic of the biblical-theological links that I make is fairly safe I think (though not uncontested). That Israel is a representative microcosm of humanity and Christ is a microcosm of Israel is not an uncommon observation though spelling out the case for the links would be inappropriate in a short blog comment. That the story of Christ parallels that of Israel which, in turn, parallels that of humanity is again, or so it seems to me, not an uncommon observation. <BR/><BR/>In my post my focus was on the "Day of the LORD" motif which applies to Israel's exile and, in its eschatological fullness, to the final judgement. The exile was the result of the Day of the LORD for Israel. Hell is the result of the final Day of the LORD. My link between the cross-tomb, the exile of Israel and divine judgement on the nations (culminating in final judgement - Hell) is not arbitrary but exploits what seem to me to be strong links. It also allows me to say, with Calvin et al, that Christ suffered Hell for us on the cross. <BR/><BR/>So the cross-resurrection = exile-return = expulsion-new creation provides a model of divine wrath followed by divine mercy.<BR/><BR/>I admit that I am exploiting those links in unconventional ways.<BR/><BR/>But the model also applies in a different but related way - and you draw attention this this. <BR/><BR/>Even though Christ suffers on the cross 'instead' of us ... we still suffer with Christ; the cross still marks our present existence; we are still crucified with him and identify with his eschatological tribulations. <BR/><BR/>So my links between the cross and the exile allow NT authors to say that we are still in exile = we suffer with Christ.<BR/><BR/>So the story of the believer is cross then resurrection; exile then return. This is your point, I think.<BR/><BR/>I have no objections to that - indeed I affirm it - but I am not clear that it rules out what I am doing. It may do so - I will need to think more carefully about how it is that when Christ suffers he experiences divine wrath at sin but when we suffer with Christ we do not suffer divine wrath at sin. Don;t worry - I am tired and my brain has just turned to mush :-)Robin Parryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08856329564156757485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-74681470714647116832008-10-07T02:50:00.000+01:002008-10-07T02:50:00.000+01:00But does the NT use the Return from Exile (or the ...But does the NT use the Return from Exile (or the Exodus from Egypt for that matter, which is similar) as a type for the eternal state of all humanity (ie the opposite of hell) or as a type for salvation in Christ of those who put their trust in him? I would argue the latter. Remember, not all the Jews returned. In fact most didn't. <BR/><BR/>And does the NT use the Lamentations/Exile experience as a type for Gehenna at all? Again I would say not. It uses Exile as a metaphor for our sojourn in this world, or for our state prior to salvation. When we are saved, we return to the Lord, just as the Jews returned to Judah. Whether it is the Exodus (the first entry) or the Exile (the second entry) that is in mind, the Promised Land is, in NT theology, our salvation, which starts now and continues into eternity. It does not represent just the eternal aspect of it that has not yet started.The Pookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14348286180688900647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-20401052007660072802008-10-06T15:25:00.000+01:002008-10-06T15:25:00.000+01:00PookI am so grateful for your thoughtful contribut...Pook<BR/><BR/>I am so grateful for your thoughtful contributions. Let me see if I can reply in a helpful way.<BR/><BR/>The way I see OT hopes for the restoration of Israel are as follows: <BR/><BR/>The prophets promised<BR/>1. temporary exile followed by<BR/>2. everlasting new creation/new age/kingdom of God/new covenant<BR/><BR/>Temporal limitation was essential to the exile and temporarl non-limitation was essential to the restoration.<BR/><BR/>The return of the Jews under Cyrus very clearly fell short of the glory of the promises made. So it was that many Jews came to look to the FUTURE for the fulness of the promise of Israel's restoration. The final and ultimate fulfilment of the promise of a new age/new creation would be everlasting. <BR/><BR/>The fact that the return of the Jews under Cyrus was temporary simply shows that the reality of the promises was still future, NOT that they were a type of a temporary future.<BR/><BR/>So it seems to me that the temporary exile really can serve as a type of a temporary Hell because the temporal limitation of the punishment was integral to God's word about it. <BR/><BR/>And the fact that the historical return from Babylon was also temporary does not undermine my use of exile as a type of Hell because the disappointments of the return were the very thing that proved that the kingdom of God/restoration of Israel was still future.<BR/><BR/>My justification for moving from Israel's exile to Hell is not, I think, that I have taken the exile out of its covenantal context, but precisely the opposite. <BR/><BR/>It is by observing the biblical-theological connections between the story of Christ, the story of Israel and the story of humanity (connections explored at length by others) that I feel some justification in linking the cross to the exile to divine judgement on the world (both now and in the escahton). In light of those links why cannot we move from cross-resurrection to exile-return to Hell-salvation?<BR/><BR/>OK - I am being very bold and very provocative. There are many serious biblical issues that would have to be considered before such a move could be made. I have not done the hard work here. I am merely being very naughty and trying to kick off a discussion.<BR/><BR/>If anyone was persuaded of my position from reading this post I would be very worried. A lot more reflection is needed before one can do what I am suggesting not least because the traditional Christian view (with some biblical justification) is that once a person is in Hell then there is no exit. <BR/><BR/>What are your thoughts?Robin Parryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08856329564156757485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-36643048743936084862008-10-06T14:58:00.000+01:002008-10-06T14:58:00.000+01:00Jason - thanksanonymous - that the word 'Hell' doe...Jason - thanks<BR/><BR/>anonymous - that the word 'Hell' does not appear in the OT or NT is hardly surprising as it is not a Hebrew or a Greek word. The word 'Church' does not appear either nor the word 'Spirit'. The question is whether the concept designated by the word 'Hell' is biblical. <BR/><BR/>Does the Bible teach the notion of divine judgement? Yes. Does the Bible teach the concept of eschatological judgement? Yes. Does the Bible use images of eschatological punishment that are fearsome? Yes. That is what I mean by 'Hell'.<BR/><BR/>I guess that if one sees Hell as the HQ of the Devil and his demonic hoards then one has gone against the Bible. And, of course, Medieval imagination embellished biblical notions considerably. But to suggest that the concept of Hell is fundamentally pagan is to make a highly implausible proposal. There is plenty of Second Temple Jewish literature that speaks in very terrifying ways of eschatological punishment. Was this Jewish theology actually really pagan? You are going to have to offer some arguments to support your assertion if you wish to be taken as making a serious point.<BR/><BR/>What do you think that the biblical texts about eschatological wrath are about if they are not about eschatological wrath? (Is that a loaded question?)Robin Parryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08856329564156757485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-31855283980463935732008-10-06T14:42:00.000+01:002008-10-06T14:42:00.000+01:00A careful study of the "Hell" words in the Bible r...A careful study of the "Hell" words in the Bible reveals the many layers of "the traditions of men which make the word of God of no effect" that theologians have added to the simplicity found in the Bible. Hell is a pagan superstitution that does NOT belong on the pages of our Bible translations. It's not in the Hebrew, it's not in the Greek, so why should it be in our English translations? <BR/>http://www.tentmaker.orgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-41018570520151458512008-10-06T05:21:00.000+01:002008-10-06T05:21:00.000+01:00I don't think it's legitimate to take Lamentations...I don't think it's legitimate to take Lamentations out of its covenantal context with the people of God in Judah and apply it as a type eschatalogically to unbelievers in the Lake of Fire.<BR/><BR/>If you did that you would then have to conclude that the parallel type of 'heaven' in the subsequent history of Judah, namely the return to the Promised Land after the Exile, was also not permanent or lasting. You can't draw the possibility of a finite hell from Lamentations on the grounds that the Jews returned to the 'heaven' of Israel, without drawing the possibility of a finite heaven from the later revelation of their subsequent apostasy.The Pookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14348286180688900647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-52596860771265388582008-10-05T21:15:00.000+01:002008-10-05T21:15:00.000+01:00Great stuff Robin.Great stuff Robin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com