tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post5259514279356438223..comments2024-03-02T08:27:42.344+00:00Comments on Theological Scribbles: Hellbound: The Movie (full review)Robin Parryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08856329564156757485noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-37074211111151004132013-09-10T15:08:56.167+01:002013-09-10T15:08:56.167+01:00Whoops, the final sentence fragment there was from...Whoops, the final sentence fragment there was from an earlier edition of my comment which got snipped for a third comment.<br /><br />The gist was that there were in fact a minority of important and influential Catholics who affirmed both historical Catholic assurances about salvation, while working hard at opposing challenges to trinitarian orthodoxy from heresy. And they didn't think the scriptures had to be interpreted to mean there was some kind of hopeless punishment or fate or final rebellious victory over God by some sinners. (They would have been especially horrified at the notion that sinners could have any kind of victory over God! -- nor would they have regarded such a theological impossibility as an unethical 'dictatorship' by God.)<br /><br />But scriptural interpretation is a whole other topic, and I don't blame people for trying to account for what they think the scriptures are testifying. Doing so while denying some point of ortho-trin, however, cannot be the proper interpretation if ortho-trin is true.<br /><br />JRPJason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-84567701763461149712013-09-10T14:44:25.086+01:002013-09-10T14:44:25.086+01:00JRP: "God's free will to save all sinners...JRP: "God's free will to save all sinners from sin cannot be defeated by creatures"<br /><br />JT: "Is this [being unable to defeat God's salvation of sinners from sin] free will? GOD is not a dictator."<br /><br />Any sinners permanently inconvenienced by God would disagree, from their perspective, about God not being a dictator. But the relevant point is that whatever exists is continually kept in existence (for however long that may be) by the self-sacrificial grace of God. There isn't anywhere a sinner can go to be free of God's interference (as they would consider it) while still existing, and neither can they cease to exist by their own power. Nor does sadly leaving them in hell amount to letting them do what they want, because what they want is to sin without inconvenience and one way or another hell certainly inconveniences them. (Nor does that sadly passive defeat of God by some sinners even slightly match up with scriptural testimony, since you mention it.)<br /><br />You certainly don't have to worry about me trying to claim that love is primarily in the emotions or glands, instead of primarily in the will! But as a trinitarian theist, I mean that the action and active choice of fulfilling fair-togetherness between persons is the self-existence of God Most High and the ground of all reality, upon which all not-God reality depends for existence: God is essentially love, and isn't going to stop loving sinners and seeking their salvation; nor are sinners going to be able to finally defeat the source of their own existence.<br /><br />That isn't dictatorship or tyranny: it's the gracious love of God Most High (not of a lesser lord or god who can be defeated at last) Who is essentially love (instead of being a mere monotheism as in Islam or nominal deism, for example). theological heresy. (But scripture interpretation is a whole other topic.)<br /><br />JRPJason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-6677108593754039582013-09-10T14:31:42.804+01:002013-09-10T14:31:42.804+01:00JT: "What is the difference between your opin...JT: "What is the difference between your opinions above vs say calvinistic predestination and irresistable grace." It is certainly a variety of their assurance that God doesn't have to be convinced to save a sinner from sin, and doesn't have to be convinced to keep at it until He gets it done, and that we can trust Him to be competent about it. The main difference is that they would reject my agreement with Arminianistic assurance that God does intend and act toward saving all sinners from sin. (Catholics have gone with both assurances throughout history, though never officially affirming both. Those individuals who did affirm both historical Catholic assurances were Christian universalists.)<br /><br />JT: "Again, from my perspective, Universalism is basically Calvinism without hell. Irresistible grace's logical end." More accurately, universalism is basically Calvinism without a finally hopeless punishment or fate or victory of sinners, but with Arminian scope of God's salvation as well as Calvinistic original persistence to victory.<br /><br />Irresistble grace's logical end is only logically universalism with Arminian scope, which is why Calvs (and Augustinian Catholics, like for example Saint Augustine) deny the full scope. They would say universalism is basically Arminianism (or relatively modern Catholicism, which from their perspective needed reforming about the scope of God's saving love, and the denial of original persistence) taken to its logical end.<br /><br />Both sides are correct, but only if the assurances of both sides are included, which naturally both sides tend to do in regard to their own important assurances they're protecting (against each other's assaults on those assurances).<br /><br />JRPJason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-15704186081905119442013-09-09T19:22:35.799+01:002013-09-09T19:22:35.799+01:00Alex,
Thanks for the link. I read Mr. Beck'...Alex, <br /><br />Thanks for the link. I read Mr. Beck's article and I am not convinced. Love is primarily in the will and not in the emotions or glands. I also don't believe our condition is completely helpless and we have the ability by God's grace to make right choices. <br /><br />Again, from my perspective, Universalism is basically Calvinism without hell. Irresistible grace's logical end. <br /><br /><br /><br />JThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03055478999165749842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-47315289157041640942013-09-09T18:15:50.571+01:002013-09-09T18:15:50.571+01:00Thanks for the note JRP.
//Which is why I don'...Thanks for the note JRP.<br /><br />//Which is why I don't believe God will ever do anything that will lead to rational creatures (human or otherwise) losing their freedom to repent of their sins and reconcile with God.//<br /><br />I agree<br /><br />//God's free will to save all sinners from sin cannot be defeated by creatures//<br /><br />Is this free will? GOD is not a dictator. <br /><br />What is the difference between your opinions above vs say calvinistic predestination and irresistable grace. How can I know you have the correct interpretation of scripture?<br /><br /><br /><br />JThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03055478999165749842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-73857076821515399372013-09-09T14:36:58.243+01:002013-09-09T14:36:58.243+01:00JT, I'm a huge believer in the importance of f...JT, I'm a huge believer in the importance of free will, too!<br /><br />Which is why I don't believe God will ever do anything that will lead to rational creatures (human or otherwise) losing their freedom to repent of their sins and reconcile with God.<br /><br />It's also why I don't believe creatures can ever do anything to prevent God from freely choosing to keep leading rebellious creatures to repent of their sins.<br /><br />God's free will to save all sinners from sin cannot be defeated by creatures; and God isn't going to permanently rescind a gift of free will (though He might hamper it temporarily to accomplish some other plans meanwhile) in proportion to whatever extent He valued it enough to give it in the first place.<br /><br />Any emphasis on the importance of creaturely free will coherently ends up at universal salvation eventually. It only seems not to arrive there when proponents of the importance turn around and tacitly <i>deny</i> the importance in order to explain why God cannot or won't keep acting to save sinners from sin until He gets it done.<br /><br />So, yep, don't minimize the importance: go Katholicism! {g}<br /><br />JRPJason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-86252999790965946542013-09-09T02:28:44.344+01:002013-09-09T02:28:44.344+01:00JT I found Richard Beck's (who, from memory, f...JT I found Richard Beck's (who, from memory, featured in the DVD extras) <a href="http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/love-and-freedom-conditionalism-vs.html" rel="nofollow">post on Free Will</a> helpful.Alex Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03012828252900281919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-9349807451239824612013-09-09T02:17:04.991+01:002013-09-09T02:17:04.991+01:00I really enjoyed the film. I couldn't help wo...I really enjoyed the film. I couldn't help wondering if anyone from the film, primarily the non traditional view holders, ever considered the Catholic view, which I see as very different from Calvinism. The issue I have with calvinism and universalism is that they minimize one of the greatest gifts God has given us, free will. They are two extremes of the same error. The documentary is a great example of what happens to a religion of a book. I almost fell out of my chair when traditional evangelicalism was compared to Islam, comment on paper popes, and the Luther/calvin question to Driscoll. Thank you for this film Mr Miller! JThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03055478999165749842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-71080006227326555212012-11-11T01:29:44.084+00:002012-11-11T01:29:44.084+00:00I think for all the hype the theme generates there...I think for all the hype the theme generates there was a subtlety to the film in sensing Kevin's journey to struggle with a more compassionate balance--of God's radical message in a Jesus who seeks to shock us into the realization of life with or without the Divine Embrace and the consequences of the hurt, and hate and pain the results without the love that seeks to heal a hurting and broken world...the doctrinal issues rightly take a back seat in this context in searching for a less religious self-righteousness and a more humanly authenticating struggle to touch the Compassionate Divine Reality as the real meaning of the Cross and Redemption and its consequences...rick gariepynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-16245689184721321432012-10-08T09:16:34.670+01:002012-10-08T09:16:34.670+01:00John
Blush. Thanks. I am not actually those thing...John<br /><br />Blush. Thanks. I am not actually those things but am flattered that you imagine that I am.<br /><br />RobinRobin Parryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08856329564156757485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-18298530269673496782012-10-08T09:15:48.077+01:002012-10-08T09:15:48.077+01:00Anonymous — I have no idea about VOD. You'll n...Anonymous — I have no idea about VOD. You'll need to ask on the film website.Robin Parryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08856329564156757485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-66391063146477549022012-10-07T00:19:34.826+01:002012-10-07T00:19:34.826+01:00Anonymous I'm guessing VOD stands for http://e...Anonymous I'm guessing VOD stands for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_on_demandAlex Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03012828252900281919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-49141697204115755752012-10-06T18:38:20.748+01:002012-10-06T18:38:20.748+01:00Hi, Robin. Not that it matters, but I was original...Hi, Robin. Not that it matters, but I was originally slated to be in HELLBOUND?--and along with Kevin Miller was pleased to do the Q&A after its recent San Diego opening. I wrote a review of the movie on my site (http://johnshore.com/2012/09/24/the-new-documetary-hellbound-wins-the-debate/) in which I (too quickly) say what I think is true, which is that you steal this movie. You are so obviously kind, and so clearly deeply informed, and just so unpretentiously and genuinely CHARMING that I don't think the film would be half as impactful without your contribution to it. So thank for that, and for all the great work you do.John Shorehttp://johnshore.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-23875663963281868232012-10-06T16:31:29.792+01:002012-10-06T16:31:29.792+01:00Thanks, but ...
V.O.D. ???Thanks, but ...<br />V.O.D. ???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-34831702539844427122012-10-05T23:00:21.933+01:002012-10-05T23:00:21.933+01:00I just asked Kevin: "any update on the theatr...I just asked Kevin: "any update on the theatre locations for the rest of the world who are longing to see the movie? Alternatively if we're not fortunate enough to be able to, what's the ETA of the DVD - both for the US/Canada & internationally?"<br /><br />And he said: "I was just discussing this with my distributor. We are likely going to do VOD first. But I'm also not ruling out doing a tour in the UK and Australia in the new year."Alex Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03012828252900281919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-49540656426497600012012-10-05T11:07:21.966+01:002012-10-05T11:07:21.966+01:00Additionally there will be a DVD, that will defini...Additionally there will be a DVD, that will definitely be worthwhile as it has interviews with Thomas Talbott & others.Alex Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03012828252900281919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-52035866913390901102012-10-05T11:06:09.723+01:002012-10-05T11:06:09.723+01:00Kevin wants to bring it out in the UK, Australia &...Kevin wants to bring it out in the UK, Australia & other places, however I believe he still negotiating the details... obviously the more successful it is in the US/Canada, the easier it is to convince cinemas to show it elsewhere.Alex Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03012828252900281919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-56950250534158746082012-10-05T10:52:56.083+01:002012-10-05T10:52:56.083+01:00How can we see the movie here in the UK Robin? Is ...How can we see the movie here in the UK Robin? Is there a planned release?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-41015789972660151272012-09-25T16:32:10.711+01:002012-09-25T16:32:10.711+01:00Kewl! I wish we had a bookstore in our basement.
...Kewl! I wish we had a bookstore in our basement.<br /><br />Actually, if we had a basement at our factory, it might as well be a bookstore, as I keep a lot of my resource books here. {lol!}<br /><br />(Actually, I wish we had a basement anyway. West Tennessee has a load of tornadoes. {wry g} )<br /><br />JRPJason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-32362332475512958962012-09-25T14:32:53.661+01:002012-09-25T14:32:53.661+01:00Jason
Blush . . .
The book room was Windows Book...Jason<br /><br />Blush . . .<br /><br />The book room was Windows Booksellers in Eugene, Oregon. It is the basement level of the building in which we have our offices. It is indeed paradise.<br /><br />RobinRobin Parryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08856329564156757485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-32240880993062597352012-09-25T13:22:44.070+01:002012-09-25T13:22:44.070+01:00While I had a few relatively minor problems with t...While I had a few relatively minor problems with the film (I saw its pre-release in Nashville a few weeks ago, met Kevin Miller etc.), I feel confident that opponents to Christian universalism were treated with a lot more fairness than in, say, Rob Bell's <i>Love Wins</i> (of which I am much more critical, primarily for that reason, despite agreeing more with his specific type of UR than most of the proponents in this film).<br /><br />Kevin saves Robin for mostly the last 1/3 of the film (or so it seemed to me), and he's definitely the big gun, not least because Robin represents the approach that theological conservatives (like myself {g}) are most likely to respect and take seriously. (Robin is too modest to say so of course, so I thought someone ought to mention it. {lol!})<br /><br />Also, on a completely trivial note, I ADORED THE OLD BOOKSTORE OR LIBRARY OR WHATEVER THAT KEVIN FILMED ROBIN'S INTERVIEW IN!!!! Not "distinguished" old, unfortunately, but still I would easily camp out there for months if I could. Details?? (I'm going to ask this question over at the EU forum, too, for benefit of readers there.)<br /><br /><br />In conclusion, if you see one movie this year... well, you probably already saw it, and it was <i>The Avengers</i> (my Blu of which should finally arrive today, btw {ggg}). But if you see two movies this year, <i>Hellbound?</i> wouldn't be a bad choice.<br /><br />JRPJason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-68398444953007619242012-09-25T00:25:13.175+01:002012-09-25T00:25:13.175+01:00Excellent review Robin, I can't wait to see it...Excellent review Robin, I can't wait to see it!Alex Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03012828252900281919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2713231510890712652.post-18483209788449037352012-09-24T21:33:22.399+01:002012-09-24T21:33:22.399+01:0045interesting write-up...will watch this documenta...45interesting write-up...will watch this documentary for certainreblicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05877037527903871932noreply@blogger.com